Thierry Boulanger, the main director and writer of The Messenger, has provided small pieces of lore in the official Discord server. This is a compilation of important lore tidbits not explicitly mentioned within the game itself.
- Ruxxtin's gear most likely did not originally belong to him.
- Blue Robes are retired Messengers, so Blue Robes members no longer carry the title of "Messenger." There is only ever one Messenger at a time.
- Messengers did not always have greed demons on their side. At some point in time, greed demons betrayed demonkind and teamed up with Messengers. Before this event, Messengers used to just plain up die.
- The Shopkeeper freaks out when she learns that Soldier died, because the Corrupted Future is an imminent threat, and there aren't many remaining Blue Robes members. They are at a point in their timeless war where a very powerful demon is very close to entering the Tower of Time.
- Over time, Messengers built frames around rifts to help future Messengers.
|Soleil||Shopkeeper: Legend also says that the monk still roams the marsh to this day, turning any trespassers into fungi.|
|Soleil||And like we see in the background, the place is filled withan enormous number of sad-looking mushrooms that sometimes sing with the music.|
|Soleil||But, I think it might be safe to assume that literally every mushroom was once an actual living human at some point, right?|
- All mushrooms with faces in Quillshroom Marsh were once living human beings.
- The Tower of Time is aware of all past, present, and future events.
- The bodies lying on the floor of the Tower of Time are the actual dead bodies of Messengers who failed to make it through the Tower of Time challenge.
- Due to the complex nature of time travel and alternate universes, the Messenger that breaks the Curse wouldn't necessarily have to be the final Messenger, and it could be reliant on a very important event happening to a later Messenger, hypothetically.
- The Tower of Time HQ changes appearance to reflect the Messenger who's there.
- Messengers from all different time periods visit the Tower of Time HQ at their leisure in no particular order from the shop's perspective.
- There is unused dialogue in the script (BARMATHAZEL_GAUNTLET_INTRO). You would return to the final room of the Underworld in 8-bit and have a conversation with Barma'thazël. In that conversation, Barma'thazël mentions that he can use scrying magic. That cut section of the game was originally involved in obtaining the Key of Chaos.
- Demon magic is the root of the scroll's magic.
|strizer86||I always thought the potions looked like those Kong toys you'd buy for dogs with 1 less... I dunno "bump" to them|
|Thierry||It's based on old sake bottles|
- Health jars are based off of old sake bottles.
|Soleil||There was a cavewoman in the scene where they were displaying all of the Messengers.|
|Soleil||Which makes me wonder if the western village just eventually had all of the types of different Messengers over time, or if they pulled someone back from the flood.|
|Soleil||But I think it's unlikely a pre-flood cavewoman.|
|Clappj||I think the flood set humanity back thousands of years|
|Clappj||the way it's set, I think the flood happens around our timeframe|
|Clappj||with the ice caps melting and whatnot|
|Clappj||that could also explain where the clockwork concierge comes from|
|Soleil||But nobody looked like cavepeople during any of the cutscenes after the flood.|
|Clappj||and why he has an extinguisher|
|Soleil||The Western Village has had cavemen, monks, vikings, ninjas, and robots.|
|Soleil||And normal-ish people in the cutscene.|
|Clappj||say humanity gets almost wiped out|
|Clappj||there's a good chance that the people left don't have many survival skills|
|Clappj||like, if you were forced on an island with say.... 40 other people, you wouldn't be making houses and using electricity yet|
|Clappj||you would go back to the stone age|
|Clappj||and slowly make your way back up|
- Both the flood and the demon attack of Forlorn Temple set humans back many generations in technology.
|Clappj||let's take a step back|
|Clappj||why do they not go past the first messenger|
|Soleil||(Unless they have.)|
|Clappj||Why would they not go past the first messenger and if they have, what for?|
|Soleil||"Timeless battle" but not anywhere before the scroll's creation?|
|Soleil||So it's timeless but with a rule?|
- Messengers are possibly unable to time travel to a time period before the scroll's creation.
|Clappj||the story ends with the messengers in the tower of time|
|Clappj||which is outside of time completely|
- Guardian Gods and sky giants are completely different groups.
- There really shouldn't be frames around the checkpoint rifts in Elemental Skylands or the Music Box. Ninja was originally meant to add the frames himself, but it didn't make it to the final version of the game.
- The Tower of Time decides "when" to send a Messenger, treating the "timeless battle" as a rubix cube of potential timelines that it's trying to solve.
|Soleil||Ohh, someone uploaded this image a long time ago in this particular Discord.|
|Soleil||Lower-left shows off 16-bit Leaf Monster.|
|Soleil||And heck, most of the screenshots here are very beta.|
|Soleil||Okay, there's 1 really really really interesting one.|
|Soleil||Column 1, row 4.|
|Soleil||Iron Hood and another person?!|
|Soleil||Looks feminine, maybe a beta Queen of Quills?|
|Kodran||thats what i was thinking|
|Soleil||2 swords instead of a whip.|
|Soleil||And they were enshrined in Sunken Shrine.|
|Soleil||Beta Sunboy and Moongirl???|
|Soleil||3/4 statues we believe are linked to certain people, but we don't really know who Iron Hood is linked to, so this makes sense...|
|Thierry||beta Sunken Shrine statues were used for placeholder!|
|Thierry||we wanted to design those statues later but opted to leave sunboy and moongirl appearances completely abstract|
|Thierry||there is no correlation with iron hood, the shrine sunk during the flood and was already hundreds of thousands of years old by that point|
|Clappj||may I ask a question|
|Thierry||sure, I'll answer anything that's not already there to find or to be explored later|
|Thierry||(in other words, clarify anything that's already meant to be clear)|
|Clappj||Do we know iron hood?|
|Clappj||Or are they another random person that we've yet to see?|
|Thierry||there have been hundreds of cycles before Ninja|
- The Iron Hood was possibly a Messenger in a cycle before Ninja.
- Each Messenger sees their own version of the Tower of Time HQ, so they don't really interact with each other.
|Soleil||It seems like Shopkeeper still has to hang out in the Tower of Time assisting random messengers even though from his point of view the curse was already defeated.|
- The Shopkeeper truly did experience the curse being defeated even though she's helping out Cowboy post-credits.
- Some of the demons are Kappa.
|Soleil||You wrote the entire English script, and Devolver handled all of the other translations. But did you have any input on the French scripts? Or did Devolver handle that too?|
|Thierry||The French text were handled by their translators as well, as we needed "international french" for Europe and Québécois is a niche thing|
|Thierry||We did do that one though!|
|Soleil||Ah, you did the Quebec French script too?|
|Soleil||Which one did you write first?|
|Thierry||It's also the canon one for what it's worth|
|Soleil||Were there any jokes that you had to alter so they made sense in French?|
|Thierry||Qc Quarble is a whole new thing|
|Thierry||Le Shopkeeper is just for the meme of adding "le" from english to make something sound french|
|Thierry||But yeah, The Shopkeeper...|
|Thierry||Again, English is canon! Especially since it's easier in that language to write around stuff|
|Thierry||Like not being too specific|
- The English version of the script is canon.
- The English version of the script is canon. It's important and somehow linked to The Shopkeeper.
|Thierry||it's very subtle, but Ninja is holding his sword backwards in 16bit|
|Soleil||Ah, I see. *don't know anything about swords*|
|Thierry||like handle is down at his hip|
|Thierry||à la Garen Malek|
|DreamHazard||fun fact: I'm not the only person who wondered where Ninja kept his scuba gear|
|DreamHazard||before realising that was the scroll on his back|
|Soleil||I thought it was scuba gear too...|
|Thierry||This was the ref!|
|Soleil||Oh!! Very neat.|
|Soleil||It does look like he's swinging it like that.|
|Thierry||the most obvious one is the idle standing attack, if you let it play fully instead of moving again he clearly holsters it from the bottom|
|Thierry||that's one thing we wished had come through more clearly|
|Thierry||because it's such a cool visual upgrade in theory|
|Soleil||So he's right-handed?|
|DreamHazard||I learned some defensive techniques from that starting position, there's a really confusing counter you can do by sidestepping and flicking the blade up into your opponent's sword|
|Thierry||depends which side you're scrolling, but from the back shot, yes|
|Soleil||Thank you very much!|
|Thierry||also the running and standing animation, notice the hand is always on the handle, so up to his shoulder in 8bit and down to his hip in 16bit|
|Thierry||ready to strike|
|Soleil||Yeah, that makes way more sense now.|
|Soleil||I'm just sort of sitting here next to a time portal, going back and forth to see what it looks like.|
|Soleil||The live-action short doesn't flip the sword holster.|
|Thierry||We weren't on the set, so little subtleties are off|
|Thierry||Stoked on it though!|
|Kammesennin||Is that voice canon? Cuz I really imagined his voice being quite different.|
|Thierry||The voice couldn't be less canon|
- Ninja is right-handed if he's facing to the right.
- Ninja's draws his sword differently in 8-bit and 16-bit. His hand is always at the sword handle, which is at the top of the sheath in 8-bit and the bottom of the sheath in 16-bit.
- Although The Shopkeeper has a super-deep voice in the video, "Shinobi No Kikan," this is not her canon voice.
|Thierry||Guardian Gods, huh?|
|Thierry||Where do you think they sit on the timeline compared to the giants, or the flood?|
|Thierry||And for The Shopkeeper, english is canon|
- The English version of the script is very canon and related to The Shopkeeper.
|Soleil||So you're saying all the dudes at the Tower of Time are The Shopkeeper?|
|Gooberbarbarian||I like the idea that some or all of the blue robes are the same person.|
|Spiderbenb||The current Shopkeeper is The First Messenger and all of the Messengers after that are different variations of The Shopkeeper himself.|
|Spiderbenb||Due to...Time ****ery.|
|Gooberbarbarian||But then why does the shopkeeper need to tech himself how to do stuff|
|Kammesennin||There's so much ****ery that whatever is going on is going to be impossible for us to guess at before the 8th.|
|Thierry||@Spiderbenb very cool but no|
- The Shopkeeper is not every member of the Blue Robes.
|Thierry||A lot of things connect to it I guess|
|Thierry||It's a the end of time, where all messengers meet|
|Thierry||They built frames around the rifts leading to it, so that future messengers could enter it more easily|
|Thierry||that's where the Tower of Time is|
- Reiterating that The Void is at the end of time, where all Messengers meet. The Tower of Time is also there.
- Thierry at the time was questioned about the appearance of a new Discord channel, called #the-void. Thierry acted as if he was not aware of the new channel.
- The Corrupted Future can still exist even though it was prevented by Ninja since it's a branch.
- There is a way to make a happy ending for everyone.
- SaboTeam can only access a small portion of the archives.
- SaboTeam doesn't know anything about #the-void channel shenanigans.
|Kammesennin||Colos and Suses are said to be brothers. When the ninja grows the thistle and harvests it in the future he says something along the lines of "Now to go save two dumb brothers from waiting around until they die."|
|Soleil||Oh right, I forgot about that.|
|Soleil||How does Ninja know they're brothers?|
|Kammesennin||That I don't have a quote for... I should swap to English one of these days lol.|
|Soleil||"Time to prevent two dumb brothers from waiting to death."|
|Kammesennin||That's the one|
|NʀɢSpoon||Does the ninja actually say that about the brothers? I seem to remember it being in a generic narration box.|
- Generic narration boxes are not Ninja's own thoughts.
|Gooberbarbarian||Wait, Barma'thazel has one eye because he other is covered by an eye patch!|
|Gooberbarbarian||Didn't the prophecy say something about a monster with one eye?|
- The "one-eyed menace" from the scrying orb vision refers to Barma'thazël.
|Thierry||I think Bamboo Creek deserves a bit of mulling over|
|Spiderbenb||Well there must be a reason why Bamboo Creek doesn't have a boss right? Not because it's a "free level"|
|Soleil||There do happen to be Phobekins in Bamboo Creek and Cloud Ruins.|
|Soleil||There's like, a lot of building structures in Bamboo Creek?|
|nothingisa||I think there's no boss just to play with expectations, pretty funny if you talk to the shop guy|
|Soleil||Did Phobekins live there and build that?|
|Soleil||Was that their first home?|
|Spiderbenb||Well wasn't there a bunch of buildings next to Forlorn temple in that one cutscene though?|
|Soleil||They are very good at building things, and it's very like mechanically sound?|
|Soleil||Humans built Forlorn Temple but|
|Soleil||Maybe not the stuff at Bamboo Creek.|
- The structures in Bamboo Creek were built by a non-human race.
|Thierry||The Archivist recruited SaboTeam, we tell the stories he asks us to tell, but we don't know his endgame (or origin)|
- The Archivist recruited SaboTeam to tell people specific stories.
- The Archivist works mysteriously.
- The Archivist is mysterious.
|Spiderbenb||When do you think we'll be visited by The Archivist again? Knowing that he's immortal now, he can't really die now can he?|
|Dime||I've noticed the word immortal used typically two ways: a theoretically unending natural lifespan, and the former plus invincibility|
|Thierry||Definitely the former in this case|
- The Archivist is immortal in the sense that he has a theoretically unending natural lifespan, but he's not invincible.
- Ninja is 2 tiles tall.
|Shadow Rizer||Have the developers commented on whether or not the western hero is the shopkeeper?|
|Thierry||That's not for us to spoil!|
|Thierry||The Archivist offered to share insight on the shopkeeper's true identity but the community voted to summon Rainbowdragoneyes into Discord instead|
|Vascos||100% worth it|
- The community chose to summon Rainbowdragoneyes instead of learning an important hint related to The Shopkeeper's identity.
|Thierry||I can assure you that The Archivist picks every single word carefully, and that there is no trickery|
|Thierry||The Archivist will remain cryptic, but he never lies or tricks|
|Thierry||He's like even more canon than English|
- The Archivist is not trying to trick the community.
- It's not clear if Monk was the most skilled Messenger (the one who obtained the Key of Adventure and Key of Revenge), but she was definitely the strongest Messenger.
- Humans couldn't use magic (anymore) until the scroll came along.
- You shouldn't see Time Shards unless you carry the scroll or are in The Void. There's a glitch in the intro of the game with Ninja Village where the two Ranged Kappa can drop Time Shards before you get the scroll, but this shouldn't be a thing.
- Carrying the scroll makes you aware and responsive to time magic because Phantom distilled a branch of demon magic into the scroll and made it much more potent.
- All demons have some magic, but nothing specialized in time magic. Demons can't see Time Shards or time rifts. They need the scroll in order to be able to use time magic and in order to enter The Void.
- Demons want the scroll and want to invade The Void.
- The timeline perspective from the Tower of Time is different from Ninja's perspective of his own timeline. It's totally possible that The Shopkeeper met Ninja at Glacial Peak before ever meeting Ninja in the shop in the Catacombs.
- Something major happened to the Blue Robes which almost eradicated the Order and forced them to escape The Void until the next Messenger could summon the Tower. (Hypothetically.)
|Empathy Module||when the ocean is lower than hell|
|Kammesennin||Never thought about that|
|Spiderbenb||The Searing Crags used to be an active Volcano, but when the flood happened it "calmed" the volcano and made it dormant, but the demons reside there because it's similar to their version of hell. Like.. a temporary vacation home.|
|Thierry||Yo @Spiderbenb that is correct|
|Thierry||The volcano part|
- The flood turned Searing Crags from an active volcano into a dormant volcano.
|VeggieDelphine||Mais j’y pense ... anglais est le seul texte écrit par Thierry? Le reste est la job de traducteurs??|
|Thierry||Anglais et Québécois|
|Thierry||Mais Anglais est canon|
- Even though Thierry wrote both the English and Québécois scripts, the English version of the script is canon.
|JAKK||And it could very well be that select few (like Baramzathael)|
|JAKK||Are in on this secret group|
|JAKK||No other demon, other than him, up and disappears like he does|
|Thierry||There's something to be said about Barma'thazël's speed that's for sure|
|Thierry||Everyone has a their own unique power derived from a very basic attribute|
|Thierry||Ninja has agility, Monk has strength|
|Thierry||Barmy has speed|
|Thierry||They respectively lead to cloudstepping, something I won't spoil, and phase shifting|
|Thierry||Point being, dude is fast|
- Barma'thazël vanishes before he's killed in the Underworld.
- Ninja's agility, Monk's strength, and Barma'thazël's speed respectively lead to Cloudstepping, a spoiler-related ability, and phase-shifting.
- Barma'thazël is really fast.
- The Messenger is just one book in an overall larger universe that The Archivist wants SaboTeam to tell people.
- The Archivist wants to recruit enough Messengers to solve the big issue.
- "Barma'thazël's Revenge", which starts off with "Picnic Panic," is a trilogy of self-contained sidequests that occur after Ninja's mandatory story. The other two sidequests after Picnic Panic may or may not be told. It's optional stuff that definitely adds to the world-building, but it's not necessary for the larger picture.
- The Archivist is Thierry's boss. Thierry is only allowed to reveal information that The Archivist wants him to, otherwise The Archivist gets angry.
- The Iron Hood is not The Artificer.
- There is something special about the Tower of Time statues.
- The Archivist wants to recruit enough Messengers to solve "the big issue," which is something complex, so he's slowing ramping up a group of people.
- Picnic Panic won't be lore-intensive, but it will still be a fun little self-contained side adventure with Ninja shenanigans.
Note: This isn't a Thierry Lore Tidbit, but The Archivist hopped out of #the-void channel to add an important react emote to a message in a different channel.
- Although The Archivist wanted players to observe Ninja's story first, there is another character in The Messenger that has important value and should be focused on.
- There is only 1 scroll.
- Time portals don't show up until after you defeat Barma'thazël because The Shopkeeper did something to the scroll to make Ninja more attuned to it.
- There is 1 Void and many alternate timelines.
- Paradoxes don't cause a space-time collapse but can mess with the paradox beholder's mind. For example, becoming your own shopkeeper. That why the Order of the Blue Robes wears blue robes.
- The Shopkeeper is not Ninja.
- The Tower of Time is like a time machine. Ninja enters the Tower of Time at every checkpoint.
- The Tower of Time appears briefly to grab Ninja and fly him to where (when) he is needed.
- The Tower of Time goes to the scroll.
- The Void materialized as a way to balance the existence of all these alternate timelines. It acts like an anti-infinity so that the balance is kept.
- If something comes from The Void or enters The Void, it becomes canon across all timelines. It becomes a single instance of itself.
- The Corrupted Future was almost named the "Corrupted Void." It is the only area in the game without 8-bit/16-bit transitions because it's stuck in 8-bit and the 16-bit version is what Ninja has to prevent.
- Every time there is a fork in time, both happen and become their own timeline. Carrying the scroll lets you create your own linear timeline.
- Just as Ninja visited the Corrupted Future to have scope on why he had to win, The Archivist shows the player Ninja's world, to give the player scope on the future The Archivist wants to be prevented.
- The Blue Robes know The Archivist as "The Archivist" rather than his previous moniker, "The Alchemist."
|VeggieDelphine||Is that the creature we would have seen had we voted for before ?|
|Thierry||no, it would have been something bigger|
|GaidenGravity||A bigger pile ?|
|VeggieDelphine||their grumpy face is just so cute|
|Thierry||These are Voodkins. While they're certainly cousins to the Phobekins they're not driven by fear|
|Spiderbenb||Are they driven by....Bravery?|
|Kammesennin||Or perhaps voodoo|
- There was a "Curiosity" VoteTri option during a voting event with The Archivist, which would have revealed a creature from Voodkin Island ahead of time. It was not the winning option, but if did win, it would have revealed a creature bigger than a Guile Pile.
- Voodkins are cousins to the Phobekins, but they are driven by voodoo rather than fear.
|Soleil||You know, the 4 statues we see, The Bowman, Phantom, Monk, Iron Hood. Only 3 of them seemed relevant game-wise to Ninja's journey. But The Iron Hood was actually important too if he made Ninja's Wingsuit and potentially Climbing Claws.|
|Soleil||So maybe the tower showcases important figures specifically for that Messenger.|
- The Tower of Time showcases important figures specifically for that Messenger.
- Reiterating that Picnic Panic will not be lore-intensive.
- Picnic Panic takes place in an alternate timeline, and the Ruxxtin in the Picnic Panic trailer is also an alternate version of Ruxxtin.
- Ninja's original timeline and the alternate timeline are almost identical. Ninja and Barma'thazël traverse from the original timeline to the alternate timeline, though, so Ninja and Barma'thazël aren't alternates.
- Ruxxtin's lab has a green crystal ball, confirmed to be a scrying orb. This may be linked to how alternate Ruxxtin knows about Ninja.
|Soleil||Also, there's only ever 1 scroll.|
|Soleil||If Ninja goes there, carrying the scroll.|
|Soleil||That means no Messenger exists in that universe carrying the scroll.|
- Like mentioned by Thierry on February 7, 2019, there is only 1 scroll.
- If Ninja goes to the Picnic Panic timeline, carrying the scroll, that means no Messenger exists in that universe carrying the scroll.
- SaboTeam only have clear instructions from The Archivist and Ninja's book. They don't have any other books from The Archives.
- The Archivist has selected the 2nd book he wants SaboTeam to tell a story of, but SaboTeam doesn't know what it is yet.
- The Archivist has been temporarily replaced with the Clockwork Concierge for ARG-related activities.
- The Archivist and the Clockwork Concierge are the only characters that existed before the flood.
- SaboTeam might be held hostage by The Archivist. This is why SaboTeam is forced to delete Clockwork Concierge's spoiler-related posts about unreleased story content.
- The Blue Robes sent The Bowman to deliver the scroll to Ninja Village as quickly as possible. When The Shopkeeper mentions, "We gave you a scroll," to Ninja, The Shopkeeper uses "we" to refer to the collective group of the Order of the Blue Robes.
- The Bowman arrived late to Ninja Village. Ideally, The Bowman was supposed to give Ninja a proper explanation, but he had no time.
- If the scroll takes its carrier to a dimension or time period that the carrier doesn't belong to, only the scroll gets to stay there. The moment the carrier gives up the scroll, the carrier disappears. This scenario happened to both The Bowman and to Ninja.
- The Shopkeeper acts detached since so many people have died during the timeless war, and it's too emotionally taxing to care about each new person unless they've survived for a good while.
|Spiderbenb||But we all know that Sabomart = The Archivist|
|Spiderbenb||(I'm not giving up on this one.)|
|Thierry||Can confirm this one's a no|
- SaboMart is not The Archivist.
|Kammesennin||She did find the first two music notes, right? Maybe she could go back and forth. I don't think we know if it was actually 500 years she had a span of though.|
|Stéphanie||Heyyyy we aren't sure that it's her|
|Kammesennin||Oh. I thought it was her.|
|Soleil||Yeah, we kept saying that Monk could be the skilled Messenger who got the two Music Notes, but then Thierry said she was the strongest, which is different from being skilled.|
|Soleil||So it could be her but not necessarily.|
|Clappj||Strong doesn't necessarily mean best|
|Clappj||Though that does make me think|
|Clappj||"There has never been a stronger messenger"|
|Clappj||Did the curse maybe weaken her a little?|
|Soleil||The way Shopkeeper spoke of her and Magic Firefly's line made me think it was her.|
|Soleil||But now we know there's a distinction between strength and skill.|
|Soleil||She's just really really strong.|
|Clappj||ninja canonically beats her in a 1 on 1|
|Clappj||but he beats the queen of quills, not her|
|Soleil||Also Shopkeeper calls her their most promising Messenger and was really sure Ninja wouldn't win against her.|
|Clappj||Yeah! It looked like all odds were stacked against him|
|Clappj||but he still somehow won?|
|Clappj||I'm guessing the primal fear's curse weakened her a little. She's probably gotten a little worn out from making the marsh all quilly and stuff|
|Clappj||I'd love to see a boss fight against the monk that's super duper hard|
|Soleil||Well Ninja's special ability is agility, so it doesn't matter how strong someone is if you dodge all their attacks.|
|Clappj||Maybe a little optionnal thing in the tower of time|
|Soleil||Unless you're bad at the game lol.|
|Clappj||Shopkeeper was like "nah fam you aren't winning this"|
|Clappj||I'm nearly convinced that the curse made her a bit worse|
|Thierry||Ninja would definitely lose to her at arm wrestling|
- Although Ninja defeats Monk in her boss fight, he would definitely lose to her at arm wrestling.
|OHSHIET||Is there any connection between Artif and Monk?|
|OHSHIET||Like maybe they don't know each other|
Artificer has some connection to Monk
Artificer is also not (and has never been) a human
- The Artificer has some connection to Monk.
- The Artificer is not, and has never been, a human.
|Babushka||My first concern was about the ending scene with Cowboy and Shopkeeper. I was thinking, why is he carrying the scroll if we lifted the curse and stuff?|
|Babushka||But the answer is under Cowboys wiki page|
|Babushka||Hmm kinda. Now I'm thinking: what is Cowboys goal?|
|Babushka||Is Cowboy having similar goal to Ninja's?|
|Babushka||How destroying the music box affects Cowboy's story? Could he be from a timeline before Ninja's?|
|Babushka||But if there can be hundreds of timelines, there is only one void (right?) and whatever happens with void has an effect in every timeline (yes,no?)|
|Thierry||Yo Babushka I'm pretty sure Cowboy is told about the Mask's curse and how it was broken|
|Thierry||It doesn't mean the scroll gets destroyed, or that there can't be carriers of it anymore to put its power to use for other reasons|
- The scroll is not destroyed after the events of The Messenger.
- Even though the Mask's curse is broken, there can still be carriers who use the scroll's power for other reasons.
|Thierry||The Shopkeeper sees adventurers one at a time|
- The Shopkeeper sees adventurers one at a time.
|Gamma Fithteen||So how come in Rivière Turquoise when you time travel it goes from sad to happy?|
|Gamma Fithteen||I know there was a messenger who fixes it and I know it's implied to be Monk but she was evil at that time so who fixed everything?|
|Gamma Fithteen||(I also know the shopkeeper admits to it being a plothole but I want answer ;n;)|
|Kammesennin||Monk wasn't evil when she fixed everything.|
|Gamma Fithteen||but in the past she is evil and you don't take the evil out of her until right after that stage or sometime after|
|Gamma Fithteen||Ah I see|
|Gamma Fithteen||I'm still trying to wrap my head around it|
|Thierry||Hey! This may or may not be explored later. Simply put, she did "plant the seed" that would heal Rivière Turquoise, but that process took a long time and didn't require anything more from her.|
- There are multiple timelines and only 1 Void, so any other Messenger or event could simply be from another timeline.
- There is only 1 Tower of Time while it is in the Void.
Note: Earlier in the ARG, it was revealed by the Clockwork Concierge that the Demon King fought in The Messenger was not the real Demon King and was merely a fake copy. The true remnants of the Demon King are locked up in the Clockwork Castle.
During the ARG on April 26, Barma'thazël infiltrated the Clockwork Castle and located the Demon King's remnants. The Clockwork Castle's seals were strengthened, so the Demon General's attempts in freeing the Demon King were thwarted.
|Soleil||So Picnic Panic has happened in the past.|
|Soleil||From our perspective prolly?|
|Soleil||But there is still a Demon General running around causing havoc.|
|Soleil||That means Ninja doesn't truly defeat Barma at the end of the Barma'thazel's Revenge trilogy (unless it's a new general or something).|
|Soleil||Unless what happened today is before Picnic Panic since Picnic Panic is not out.|
- Before the events of Picnic Panic, Barma'thazël broke into the Clockwork Castle in an attempt to free the Demon King's remnants.
|Thierry||The denizens of the tower all wear blue robes|
|Thierry||The reason for that is related to why ToT is configured depending on who it appears for|
|Thierry||So the tower (gauntlet form, not HQ later)|
|Thierry||Has two purposes|
|Thierry||First to push a Messenger to the limit and kill them if they're not the one so that the scroll isn't lost to the demons later (please excuse Quarble here for gameplay reasons, canon ToT would be no Quarble + permadeath)|
|Thierry||And second to prevent the integrity of their minds in the event that they are the one|
|Thierry||(mind and or sanity not sure which is the best english word here)|
|Thierry||The Void is kind of big thing to fathom and take in, so providing a frame and familliarity helps Messengers make it through relatively undisturbed|
- The Tower of Time challenge pushes a Messenger to their limit and kills them if they are unworthy, to prevent the scroll being lost to the demons later.
- The canon Tower of Time runthrough would involve no Quarble + permadeath. Quarble's presence in the Tower of Time for gameplay purposes should be disregarded.
- The Void is a big thing to fathom, so the Tower of Time protects the sanity of Messengers as they travel through the Tower. It provides a frame and familiarity that helps Messengers make it through the challenge relatively undisturbed.
|Thierry||As revealed recently, Ninja did not fight the actual Demon King|
|Thierry||Barma'thazel did activate plan B after seeing how capable he was, though|
|Soleil||So if the Demon King is actually locked up in Clockwork Castle.|
|Soleil||And the Demon King in Forlorn Template is a weak copy.|
|Soleil||Then is the Demon King during the assaults on Ninja Village and Soldier Village also the copy?|
- As revealed by the Clockwork Concierge in the ARG, Ninja did not fight the actual Demon King, and the remnants of the true Demon King are locked up in Clockwork Castle.
- The Demon King copy fought in Forlorn Temple is the same copy that initiates the assault on 8-bit and 16-bit Ninja Village.
- Clockwork Concierge is under the same NDA as SaboTeam, which is why some of his messages about unreleased lore content get deleted.
- Clockwork Concierge has free will.
- Clockwork Concierge sort of has a British accent.
|Soleil||So after Ninja fights Barma'thazel, the room collapses and he falls down into a river of lava/magma idk which is the right word.|
|Soleil||But then he gets saved at the last second by Manfred.|
|Soleil||But if Manfred didn't catch Ninja, wouldn't Quarble just revive Ninja?|
|Soleil||Like, I guess it's supposed to be like, the whole entire floor with the shop checkpoint and Barma'thazel's room are supposed to have collapsed too, but also like|
|Soleil||There's a glitch where if you reload the game, you can return to those rooms as if nothing happened.|
|Soleil||And the fact that you can't ever return to those rooms legitimately in either 8-bit or 16-bit.|
|Soleil||So those rooms should really be "destroyed" even though game-wise they are still there and intact.|
|Soleil||So does that mean like, if Quarble attempted to revive Ninja, there would be no checkpoint for Ninja to return to? Because most likely the shop checkpoint before Barma'thazel would be the one he warps back to, but it would have probably been destroyed.|
|Spiderbenb||Speaking of which.|
|Spiderbenb||The map itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it? With Ninja being in the Underworld east side of the island and suddenly being on the west. Either planet is VERY small or the underworld is built in such a way that it extends the entire bottom of the island and you actually move in a reverse direction towards the west.|
|Spiderbenb||Because Cloud Ruins is above Glacial Peak on the far East of the island.|
|Thierry||yo Soleil that's very close to "because gameplay" territory|
|Thierry||but yeah, basically on that one|
|Thierry||Quarble takes you back in time BEFORE you die|
|Thierry||it'd be an infinite loop of winning the fight only to fall again|
|Thierry||logically perhaps you would know and try something else then, but yeah :p|
|Thierry||that's where were very close to "because gameplay"|
|heather||hey thierry while ur here|
|Spiderbenb||I got nothing to add. I will accept this. "Because Gameplay." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯|
|heather||did you write all the dialogue in the game|
|Soleil||I see, so the fact that you defeated Barma'thazel wouldn't have saved.|
|Thierry||also intro cutscenes should replay fully every time but we're not evil|
|Soleil||Along with the room collapsing.|
|Thierry||yes Heather, every word|
|heather||what was your favorite part to write?|
|heather||and is there anything you could recite from memoryy|
|Thierry||about the island looping, maybe it doesn't come off as clearly as intended|
|Thierry||but Manfred fly up and to the right before exiting above the sea|
|Thierry||so looking at the moutain from the east side, there would be a big tunnel entrance leading to the underworld at the base|
|Thierry||you basically fly out of that|
|Thierry||after falling inside a similar hole from the cloud ruins|
|Thierry||which fun fact there was almost a "falling level" to cover that part|
|Thierry||well not almost, it was brushed off very quickly|
|Thierry||also maybe not|
|heather||that probably would have been cool if it had made it in (and not been too long)|
|Thierry||it lives in my head for a long time but by the time it comes out I'm usually over it|
|heather||oooh i get what you mean by that|
|Spiderbenb||Falling level in DLC when?|
|Soleil||I think it's clear that Ninja and Manfred leave the Underworld from the east side of the island, but they keep flying eastward and reach the west Ninja Village in 1 night which would be super-quick.|
|Thierry||"and then you basically fly so far east that you basically come back to the beginning, from the west, but in the future" is probably the phrase I used the most while pitching the game|
|Thierry||that and "there's no double-jump BUT-"|
|Soleil||That's interesting that hypothetically dying brings Ninja to a point in time before he truly defeated Barma'thazel.|
|Soleil||Because iirc, you keep Power Seals even after you die.|
|Soleil||So it's like you keep them/they break forever even after you get warped back.|
|Soleil||And then what of Queen of Quills?|
|Soleil||Time itself doesn't reverse and she gets warped away.|
|Soleil||If Quillble and Quarble functioned in the same way, the fight would just happen again, right? Unless Queen of Quills decided not to go to that arena.|
|Soleil||But from Ninja's perspective, he fought Queen of Quills, then she disappeared.|
|Soleil||If Ninja falling and dying being an infinite loop is a thing, then infinite Queen of Quills fight loop should be a thing.|
|Soleil||So then what should happen is that time reverses, then Ninja should just walk through the Queen of Quills's room with her not there / or she tries to fight him again / or she's there and doesn't try to fight him.|
|Soleil||Unless Ninja having the scroll prevents him from getting reversed.|
|Soleil||So it still seems like "because " as the all-purpose solution here.|
|Thierry||Because scroll, yeah|
|Thierry||It sort of branches the carrier out to write their own timeline|
|Thierry||Or rather, the scroll's perspective is canon|
- Quarble takes you back in time before you die.
- Ninja doesn't go back in time when Quillble revives the Queen of Quills because Ninja was carrying the scroll.
- The scroll's perspective is canon.
- A Music Note crystallizes either when a specific emotion repeats enough times, or when a specific event has a big enough ripple effect / especially high intensity.
- The Music Notes represent the world's intention to save itself.
- Ninja was not the Messenger who obtained the Key of Revenge.
- In its effort to save itself, the world gives up on its utopia fantasy and embraces reality, the good along with the bad. Even though Chaos could be potentially viewed as one of the more negative Notes, it is part of a genuine whole.
- The notes of contrasting characteristics form a balance together.
- After Ninja hands the scroll over to Soldier, Ninja is teleported back to the shop by The Shopkeeper in order to protect him.
- Time is stopped in The Void, but you still owe it that time somehow. If you've been committed to The Void and then go outside of The Void, you age at an accelerated rate until that debt is paid. An arbitrary example is aging 1 year per minute spent outside The Void, so if you spent more than 60 years in The Void, you have only 1 hour to spend outside before dying to natural causes. Another arbitrary example is that maybe a millennia in The Void means you have 50 years left outside of it.
- From Ninja's perspective, Ninja first met The Shopkeeper in an Autumn Hills shop. From The Shopkeeper's perspective, she encountered Ninja at the top of Glacial Peak before encountering him in the Autumn Hills shop. The Shopkeeper still needs to guide Ninja to the top of Glacial Peak in order for the Autumn Hills shop meeting to happen.
- The Tower of Time only appears for who it's meant to appear for. The Tower became bigger than the Order and took a mind of its own. Now the Order does their best to react to the Tower of Time's instinct and to pass on the scroll to the one who's meant to have it.
- Thierry mentions there's an undiscovered big piece of lore hiding in plain sight.
- Thierry hints that "The Letter H" shop upgrade in the Discord shop branch holds importance.
- There's only one Monk. Monk in Picnic Panic is the same Monk Ninja meets during the main game.
- Monk eventually teleports from the Picnic Panic timeline and into Ninja's timeline.
|Storme the Cat||I think in most media where time travel exists the terms "timeline," "universe," and "dimension" seem to be interchangable. Correct me if I'm wrong.|
|Thierry||hey, if that's confusing, we should be good with "timelines" only|
|Storme the Cat||gasp!|
|Storme the Cat||Good to know!|
|Thierry||what is mentioned by "fighting us across time, but space too" (referring to multiverses which I agree can be confusing)|
|Thierry||things happen on Ninja's timeline with time travel going back and forth to different moments on it|
|Thierry||but there's also alternate ones which run in parallel|
|Thierry||so in the maingame you hop back and forth 500 years on Ninja's timeline|
|Thierry||when leaving for Picnic Panic you side-step to another one, and then hop back and forth on it 500 years|
|Storme the Cat||Time travel really is whack like that|
|Thierry||there's a legit cause to all of it. I hope we make it there someday|
|Matehiqu||while you are here can i ask why shoppy was surprised that ninja managed to summon the ToT|
|Ze0n||I hope we make it there too!|
|Ze0n||Also: then the meeting one’s alternate self is related to meeting a past or future self?|
|Thierry||A simple lapse in cynicism, swatted almost instantly|
|Thierry||Anyway, Shoppy lost fate a while ago|
- The line, "The demons are not only fighting us across time, but across space, too," refers to multiverses, which can be confusing. To make things easier to understand, it can be described simply as "timelines" only. In the main game, Ninja travels back and forth 500 years within his own timeline. When leaving for Picnic Panic, he side-steps into another timeline, and again he travels back and forth on it in an interval of 500 years.
- There's a legit cause for events leading up to this, which future installments should build upon.
- The Shopkeeper experiences a very brief lapse of cynicism after Ninja summons the Tower of Time at the top of Glacial Peak, illustrated by her surprise. Anyway, The Shopkeeper lost faith a while ago.
|Matehiqu||if a greed demon could be sent back through time to save the messenger from death, ninja failing to send quarble to soldier wouldn't be any problem|
|Stéphanie||In his world, he gets called by Shoppy when Ninja dies|
|Stéphanie||But Shoppy has like 10 secs to do it|
|Matehiqu||Shoppy is also outside of time isn't he?|
|Stéphanie||But the orb has to be synchronised with Ninja|
|Matehiqu||it's kinda weird that even though Quarble has a space-time manipulation ring and both Quarble and Shoppy are outside of time this time limit for saving the messenger exists|
|Thierry||Not clear on the question, but timelines form "procedurally" and you have a bit of time to affect them before they commit to what happened, kinda like concrete?|
|Thierry||I don't know if that makes sense, but the Voidwalker should bring some clarity when we get to that ARG arc. The main characters have been hiding in plain sight for a while|
- Timelines form "procedurally," and you have a bit of time to affect them before they commit to what happened, kind of like concrete. This is (probably) why Quarble must be sent within 10 seconds to save a Messenger from a permanent death.
- The Voidwalker role in the ARG should bring some clarity at a later date. The main characters have been hiding in plain sight for a while.
|Soleil||Clockwork Concierge existed before the flood, and it might not be possible to time travel to a point earlier than the scroll's creation.|
- Clockwork Concierge existed before the flood, and it's probably not possible to time travel to a point earlier than the scroll's creation.
- The Archivist blames himself.
- Picnic Panic is canon.
- Wallaxer has lore relevance.
- Wallaxer should be the only enemy that is shared between Messenger Island and Voodkin Island that lacks a tropical reskin. The normal skeletal Birdies present inside the Voodoo Heart during the Dark Messenger races are a mistake, and they should be Tropical Birdies.
|Thierry||The Voodkins are like children throwing snowballs at big trucks, they have their little imaginary world where they fight you|
|Thierry||But you're not fighting them|
|Thierry||that was the intention, at least|
- Voodkins live in a little imaginary world where they fight you but you're not fighting them.
|Stéphanie||I mean I remember the fact that Ninja was supposed to |
open the rifts in Elemental Skylandsbut I don't think it's a big deal
Sunken Shrine and Music Box too to be canon
|Thierry||Basically anywhere he was the first to go|
- Like revealed by Thierry on October 30, 2018, Ninja was originally supposed to place frames around the time rifts of Elemental Skylands and the Music Box since he was the first Messenger to ever explore those areas, but this feature didn't make it into the final game. Along with Elemental Skylands and the Music Box, Ninja was the first ever Messenger to visit the Sunken Shrine.
- Ruxxtin can use scrying magic.
- Manfred is the last sky serpent.
- It's more appropriate to call Manfred a "sky serpent" rather than a "dragon."
- Dragons carry meaning to most people already, so sky serpents were chosen to avoid the preconceptions.
- One of The Shopkeeper's cabinet rants touches upon the concept of dragons and a metaphorical relationship with conquering fears. However, this dragon talk is unrelated to the lore.
- Ruxxtin wanted to raise an army of the dead in order to impress the Demon King and get recruited to eventually serve The Fleshmancer.
- The Catacombs crypt is a gold mine of raw material for a necromancer such as Ruxxtin, and he binges on it.
- The frames built at checkpoints stabilize the rifts that lead to The Void.
- There are checkpoints with either missing frames or broken frames. The rifts are still there, but they are not stable enough to be traversed since the frame isn't whole, or at least whole enough. Alternatively, the rift might have died off over time, causing the frame to give.
- Ninja was originally meant to build frames around the checkpoint rifts in areas never visited by Messengers. If this feature was implemented, the player would have been able to earn an achievement called "Hallowed Be Thy Frame" for building their own frames.
- The Rope Dart was originally intended to be the Queen of Quills's bramble whip, obtained after defeating her, but it would have been too uneven to have some bosses give upgrades and others not, so it was kept to the shop.
- The Queen of Quills was originally intended to introduce the Rope Dartable rings. She still sort of does, but not with the same function.
- Originally, Monk was intended to use a staff rather than a whip after being cured, which she would have used to break the ice off of the lanterns in Glacial Peak. Monk does wield a staff in her Tower of Time statue, though, which reflects this initial intention.
- The Archivist has time travel capabilities unrelated to the scroll.
|BillCipher44||Wait... The Wallaxers don't have eyes? I always remembered they do... Strange...|
|Samurai||They have a big pink spot. Maybe a heart?|
|BillCipher44||They have a pink ball on their head too... Brain?|
|BillCipher44||And what's the stuff in their mouth?|
- The pink drippy substance in Wallaxer's mouth is jam.